CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, hosts Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor focus on the Cavs’ struggles since mid-March, highlighting how they could impact the Cavs’ playoff success.
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Takeaways:
- Cavs have struggled defensively since mid-March.
- Late game execution is a significant concern for the Cavs.
- Kenny Atkinson’s lineup decisions are under scrutiny.
- Player management is crucial as playoffs approach.
- Cavs need to build trust on defense.
- Darius Garland’s performance is vital for success.
- Donovan Mitchell’s health is a key factor.
- Cavs have a buffer for playoff positioning.
- Chemistry issues are affecting team performance.
- Cavs must address mental errors in their game. Darius Garland’s recent performance raises questions about his playoff readiness.
- The Cavs need their key players to perform at an all-star level to succeed in the playoffs.
- Roster construction issues persist, particularly regarding lineup combinations.
- Competitive fire is essential for the Cavs to maintain their performance.
- The team has not consistently played a full 48 minutes of good defense.
- Kenny Atkinson’s coaching decisions will be crucial in the playoffs.
- The Cavs must find their best five-man lineup for critical moments.
- Experimentation with lineups is necessary but must lead to consistency.
- The playoffs demand a different level of intensity and execution.
- The Cavs have not yet earned the benefit of the doubt in high-pressure situations.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up Cavs Nation, I’m your host, Zanz, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, and we are coming to you after the Cavs’ latest loss. 120-113 to the Sacramento Kings. Chris, it hasn’t been a whole lot of times this season, I’ve been able to say that, but the Cavs are 62-16.
They did not secure the number one seed in the Eastern Conference tonight, Sunday. Before I get into the statistics, and I usually have good statistics to share after these contests, but I do not today. have more things that I want to go into and things that I feel like are becoming a bigger issue for this team. But I want to get into your mindset right now after this game, what you’ve seen and what you want to go into as well.
Chris (01:00.174)
Look, I think the thing that stands out to me here, Ethan, is that, and we’ve talked about this on the podcast, you have to be really, really careful about overreacting to a certain stretch of basketball. But I’ll put it this way. If there are people out there that had doubts about the Cavs, the Cavs are doing their part to fuel those doubts. They just have not been very good since the calendar flipped to mid-March.
Since mid-March, they’re basically 500. Since the calendar flipped to March, they’ve been middle of the pack in defense. And so much about who they are and who they pride themselves on being is the defensive end of the floor. To be ranked 15th in defense over the stretch of a month? I think that’s enough of a sample size to say that there are some troubling aspects of what they’re doing.
at that end of the floor that you have to be a little bit worried about when you get into a postseason environment. You have to worry about whether they’re going to be able to flip the switch on the defensive end of the floor. You have to be worried about some of these bad habits that are being built on the defensive end of the floor. For them to be 15th in defense, that’s just not good enough. That is not up to their own standard. And that’s since March 1st. And you continue to see that over and over and over again.
And some of these wins, like if you start putting them in perspective and you start really looking at them, Los Angeles did not have Kawhi Leonard. New York did not have Jalen Brunson. They did not have Mitchell Robinson, a playoff nemesis from the past. San Antonio, like come on, they’re playing all these young guys in late game situations to try and get them experience. Portland stinks, Utah stinks. So when’s the last time that the Cavs played a complete game
that anybody should have felt really, really good about. March 14th? On the road in Memphis? Since then, there have been troubling signs with this team. It just doesn’t feel like the same team. It feels like the chemistry is a little bit off. It feels like they’re searching on the defensive end of the floor and trying a bunch of schemes throughout the course of these games because what they want to do defensively...
Chris (03:20.332)
is not working, the attention to detail is not there, the focus isn’t there. And again, I’m not sounding alarm bells and I’m not ignoring five months of dominance and brilliance. But when you get into a playoff environment, the little things matter. They matter greatly. And I’m just not seeing this basketball team do those little things that are going to matter.
Ethan Sands (03:45.016)
I think that’s a great point and speaking of late game execution, right? We know Zach Levine to be a great mid-range scorer Not the best three-point shooter, but he can shoot the three ball. I mean tonight He had 38 points. He had seven threes, but in the fourth quarter alone He was four four from the field three of three from deep He had 11 points and you just got to see a guy that was in all worlds unable to be guarded by this Cavs team and I know we’ve talked a lot about
Chris (04:10.358)
And yeah.
Ethan Sands (04:13.208)
on this podcast about how Kenny Atkinson is experimenting with lineups. But today, it didn’t feel like he was experimenting, right? It felt like this was one of those games where him, Donovan Mitchell, and this whole entire Cavs cohort understood that they had the number one seed within their grasp and they wanted to go get it, right? And yet he did things that I would be questioning if it was done in a playoff series.
And things that we questioned about J.U. Bickerstaff, right? Why go to your core four and Max Struz when they had supposedly been struggling and you have Ty Jerome in the fourth quarter who’s already got 10 points and he’s only been playing what he played five minutes and 54 seconds. He played six minutes in the fourth quarter, then got subbed out and never came back into the game. Right. He had the most points in the quarter and yet he got taken out. I know.
Chris (04:43.916)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (05:09.796)
It was his first game back after a long absence with me, Tendonitis, and Kenny Atkinson as prioritizing health and all these things. But you can’t say both things at the same time. You can’t say you want to go get this win and then take out the most valuable player in that game to me. When you talk about that, Isaac Okoro in the third quarter was huge, had some huge stops defensively. He had seven points. He didn’t see the floor in the fourth quarter. So.
I understand that Demata-Sibonis is a big body, you need more bodies in there to help Jared Allen. Didn’t really have a big rebounding night, didn’t really have a big night in any capacity to be very fair, but you got to see Jared Allen go back into the game in the fourth quarter. And sure, Evan Mobley could have used help, but to me it looked like Evan Mobley was holding his ground better as the primary defender of Demata-Sibonis rather than a help defender and having to come off
his man and allowing them to get open looks. Chris, what do you think about the lineups that were chosen by Kenny Atkinson? And I know I might be being a little bit hyperbolic, but I think it’s true that the lineups and the experimentation has gotten a little wishy washy and could make Kenny Atkinson potentially make some decisions that he wouldn’t have in the regular season beforehand.
Chris (06:31.47)
So this is what I’ve been saying since the last two, three weeks. Winning is not the sole purpose. The outcome is not solely what matters to this team. And again, I know people don’t like hearing that, but there is enough evidence that points that way. Just look at tonight in the fourth quarter, what you brought up, Ethan. Yes, the Cavs want to win these games, dot, dot, dot, to a point, but it’s not going to come.
at the detriment of the other things that they feel like matter or are meaningful throughout the course of the game. And so I just think it becomes a complex conversation. It’s a nuanced conversation that is case by case basis and case in point, the tie Jerome situation on the fourth quarter. He’s rolling. He’s getting the arena juiced. He’s got that swag. He’s talking trash.
He’s flexing his muscles. I haven’t talked to Ty after the game. I was joking with him. I said, you had me cracking up on press row because his teammates went to go pick him up after an and one bucket and he waved them off just for a beat so that he could flex. He just wanted to, you know, send that extra jolt throughout the team and throughout the arena and stick it to Sacramento. But the truth of the matter is Ty Jerome’s on a minute restriction.
The Cavs are being very, very cognizant about how much they play tie, when they play tie, especially when you talk about the playoffs right around the corner. And here’s the other thing. You know, this injury to Donovan Mitchell with him hurting his ankle in the third quarter, early on in the third quarter, it’s going to make Kenny in this organization a little bit gun shy when it comes to decision making in this closing stretch of the season.
because they saw their playoff lives flash before their eyes, before the playoffs even started tonight. They saw a potential future without Donovan Mitchell. They are this close to the playoffs. They are a great basketball team, one of a handful of basketball teams that has a legitimate chance to win an NBA championship this year. And it can change like that. And they saw that.
Chris (08:55.928)
They felt that early in the third quarter when Donovan was writhing on the ground in pain and he was having a hard time getting to his feet on his own. And every time he tried to take a step and he put weight on his left ankle, he kind of crumbled and grabbed toward it and couldn’t put the kind of weight that he wanted to. Now they dodged one here. Donovan came back after about five minutes of game action. He came out of the tunnel. He told Kenny Atkinson he was good.
He played again in the second half. He played well early in the fourth quarter when the Cavs went on their run and it seemed like they were going to take control of the game again. Donovan’s fingerprints were all over that 8-0 run. But that’s how delicate this is. So I would expect, you know, when the Cavs lock up this number one seed, if they do Tuesday,
You’re gonna start seeing restapalooza And and I think when it comes to the fourth quarter with Ty like it wasn’t anything except for a case of I’m not sacrificing the big picture. I am NOT pushing Ty Jerome. Ty is very very important to our success. I am NOT sacrificing that I am NOT pushing it too much Just for the sake of chasing a win on a Sunday night against Sacramento even
Even if it’s the one that clinches us the number one seed. Because here’s the thing, Ethan. They didn’t have to win tonight against Sacramento. They didn’t have to. They’ve got other opportunities still to get the number one seed. And they’ve created this buffer for themselves. They created enough distance between them and Boston that they can operate this kind of way. And I know a lot of people are going to say, bleep that.
Played I Jerome in the fourth quarter because he’s rolling because he was making an impact because he was at the center of the Cavs, you know, cutting into that Sacramento lead. Sacramento went into the fourth quarter with a 12 point lead and Ty was at the center of cutting into that. Just let him keep going. But that’s not how the number one op the number one seed in the Eastern Conference is going to operate when the playoffs are this close and
Chris (11:19.786)
Everything is about trying to stay healthy and trying to be in the best physical condition possible. What if the Cavs went into tonight’s game and they had this this this minute limit that they had in mind for Ty Jerome, they pushed that and it backfired.
That’s not something that they were willing to risk. And quite frankly, I don’t blame them for that. If they were one game up on Boston, and the race for the number one seed was that close, all right, maybe you could get me on board with that. I probably wouldn’t be on board with that still, but maybe you could get me closer to being on board with that. And I just think they’re trying to weigh the risk versus the reward.
Ethan Sands (11:41.337)
I hear you.
Chris (12:10.176)
in like every decision that they make with any of these guys at this point of the season.
Ethan Sands (12:15.382)
I hear you and I think the Ty Jerome situation makes a whole lot of sense the minute restriction Kenny Atkinson talked a little bit about after the game Understandable, but in the same light Donovan Mitchell you basically saw your future flash before your eyes And yet you let Donovan Mitchell play 12 minutes rather than resting him Isn’t that an indication? sure sure they want to get Donovan Mitchell’s ramped up minutes So his body is prepared for the playoffs two very different players two very different situations
But if you see someone get hurt like that and you can barely and you see him barely put weight on it But sure he came back had a great fourth quarter all these things But would you not think into the future and be like, Well, I don’t want him to even risk Re-injuring that over the last 12 minutes of the game sit your butt down and we go figure it out Afterwards because we have this buffer. So I think it’s just interesting that these two things can be true
And I believe them to be true because obviously it happened. But I think it’s just interesting because of the situation that happened specifically tonight when it comes to Donovan Mitchell and Ty Jerome.
Chris (13:13.39)
and
Chris (13:25.47)
surprised. I was surprised that Donovan came back in the game given how serious the injury looked, how ugly looking it looked, and I was surprised given so many of the things that Kenny Axinson has done since the middle of March, I was surprised that he put Donovan back in the game. He had to feel really really good about the things that he was hearing from the training staff and from Donovan Mitchell to go down that direction. But to me,
It wasn’t worth that risk. I know Donovan wanted to play and Donovan can be very forceful when it comes to that. He can be very persuasive when it comes to that. And the way that he was playing showed that he was feeling pretty good, at least at the start of the fourth quarter, but I was surprised that Kenny went back to Donovan.
Ethan Sands (14:16.284)
Alright Chris, it’s time for me to get into some of these stats that I had put together for us, especially when we’re talking about the three major issues that I’ve pointed out over this course of the season that have gotten a little bit bigger over the season continuance as we’ve talked about with March. And this is basically what I’m writing for the morning. But here are the stats that I have. Cleveland is tied with Golden State for the second most clutch time wins.
with 25 this season, only behind the Houston Rockets who have 26. The difference is that the Cavs have played in just 35 clutch contests, compared to Houston’s 44. Again, over the last month, the Cavs have put themselves in more difficult situations. Over the last 15 games, 8 have been classified as needing clutch performances, and the Cavs are 4-4 in those games.
which isn’t very good for team that we know to have a lot of clutch time wins. And then, you look at the shooting nights like Sunday against the Kings where they shot 26.3 % from deep. The Cavs came into the matchup with the 2nd best 3 point percentage in the league, 38.2%. In the 15 games this season when the Cavs have shot worse than 32 % from beyond the arc, Cleveland is 7-8, losing
8 of their 16 total losses coming when they have shot less than 32 % from beyond yark. Chris, I know that the Cavs don’t want to say, we’re not over relying on the three. We can get to our spots. We can run half court offense. We can do all of these things. Sure. But the numbers are indicating a little bit differently. And then again, even while having the best ranked offense in the NBA and having the scores to win shootouts, as we know,
The Cavs are 1-6 when the opposing team scores 130 or more points this year. In just 2 of these 7 contests, the Cavs have shot below 32 % from deep, pointing to the defensive lapses that we’ve talked about. So I just think the 3 main areas of concern are late game execution, shot making, defensive lapses, and all 3 of those areas.
Ethan Sands (16:39.386)
are crucial when it comes to the playoffs. What do you think of those three is the biggest concern going into the last four games of the season and into the playoffs?
Chris (16:52.076)
I mean, obviously late game execution stands out because you feel like when you play in a playoff environment, there are going to be a lot of those moments throughout the course of a series. And it is going to come down to late game execution. Do you know what you want to get to? Do you know when you want to get to those things? Do you know who you want to get to? How do you function in those kinds of situations? But they were so good. So good.
at the beginning of the year in those things. So is it just like natural regression that was probably going to come? Is it that teams are more aware of what they want to do in late game situations? They’re able to take the calves out of those things? I think, I think we still have to watch that one. I think, I think we’re to borrow a Kenny Atkinson phrase. I think we’re still collecting data on that one.
before making an ultimate determination. But there’s something else that goes hand in hand with that, right? Like Darius Garland was one of the best players in the NBA in the clutch at the beginning of the season. So much so that people were talking about him potentially for clutch player of the year. It sounds simplistic, but if Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell aren’t great, aren’t efficient,
the Cavs, duh, become more vulnerable. They are so involved in what the Cavs do on the offensive end. They’re so important to this team’s success on the offensive end that if they’re not executing properly, if they’re not playing well, if they’re not being efficient, you know, the Cavs don’t have too many other places to go for consistent, reliable offense. Not yet, anyway.
And we’ve talked about this, know, Evan Mobley is still coming into his own as a star. He’s still learning what it is to be a star. He’s still learning how to accept and understand all of the responsibilities that come with being a star. Yeah, there are times where, and the Clippers game comes to mind, the Cavs continue to go to Evan in late game situations. They call his number. He delivers for them.
Chris (19:15.298)
They feel like there’s an advantageous matchup that they can exploit. Then they go to him. But there are also times where he’s reliant on Darius and Donovan keeping him involved in the offense. And sometimes he just kind of floats and he becomes an afterthought. Now that can’t happen, but it does throughout the natural course of a basketball game. That has a tendency to happen, especially when Darius Garland and Donovan are so responsible and so ball dominant.
So they need those guys to execute at a high level, especially in late game situations. You know, a big part of their success in late game situations at the beginning of the year was Darius. Darius was so good. He hasn’t been as good since basically the middle of March. That’s a problem. And their clutch rating has suffered as a result of that. It doesn’t look as good.
When Darius isn’t making these big shots or he’s making these big plays or he’s breaking down defenders at will and causing chaos for the opposing defense. so I don’t think we can ignore that aspect of this whole thing. And then the other one is, is defense. And I don’t know. You know, I don’t know so much. Yeah. Part of it is effort. Part of its intensity. Part of it is they have to be better at the point of attack, but I’m seeing a lot of mental errors, Ethan.
I’m seeing a lack of trust overall. And when you use the word trust, people have such a negative connotation and they’re like, my God, our alarm bells gotta go off. But I mean it from this standpoint. They are a switch heavy defense. And like that’s how they want to operate because Kenny believes in that strongly. And he thinks it’s going to be really important when it comes to the playoff environment. But like,
If that’s what you’re going to be, you have to trust that. And you have to trust the individual defender in those switches. If you start over-helping, or if you start sending help on the back end, then all of a sudden the rest of your defense is kind of at a deficiency. So it’s like, I’m seeing a lot of switches, but aw damn, Darius is on an island. Aw damn, Max Drus is on an island, we’ve got to protect him.
Chris (21:36.878)
You know what I’m saying? Like there just isn’t the level of trust on the defensive end of the floor. There isn’t the level of continuity and communication and stuff like that. you know, in late game situations, Zach Levine can’t just walk into threes. It’s Zach Levine. Like he’s near the top of your scouting report. He’s got 30 plus points. Make Keon Ellis beat you. Make Trey Lyles make a big shot down the stretch.
And I think like, personnel recognition and game plan execution, all of that stuff is standing out to me, especially in late game situations for the Cavs, as not quite good enough.
Ethan Sands (22:22.532)
And Chris, it’s interesting, right? Because we, as we know, we can have access to the locker room before the game. And obviously we have to exit before their team meeting with 30 minutes left on the clock. But we’re in there talking to players and I was in there today and I’m looking at their screen and they have the film on Sacramento, right? They have the film running through and it is curated so that it stops after each individual player and it shows
Chris (22:34.394)
Hmm.
Chris (22:45.485)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (22:51.418)
the list of their attributes and basically it looked like a 2k screen to be very fair Chris. It literally looked like you could break down the player and what they wanted to stop, what they wanted to highlight, what they were going to allow them to do. And Zach Levine came up and said, hot hand. And I’m like, yeah. So you understand, you know that you have to take away Zach Levine’s shot because as we mentioned,
He could get to the mid-range. He’d get to the three ball. He can get to the lane. He had a couple of walk-in layups too, Chris. You get the cutter on the back side. Donovan talked a little bit about, and this is part of the reason why I love talking to Donovan Mitchell after games, because whether they lose, whether they win, whether he’s happy, whether he’s upset, angry, frustrated, he’s going to break plays down. And he got to talking about just plays where he had mental errors, where he had players running in front of his face.
Chris (23:22.35)
Thank you.
Ethan Sands (23:43.066)
running behind and running in front and trying to break down these situations where it was the little things, the little adjustments that need to be made. And not all of them were physical. Some of them were mental and seeing and reading the play before things happen or being stuck watching the ball or over helping. And those are things that we have talked about at length this season that have just simply become more and more of a problem as the season have gone on. And Chris, I’m...
almost at the point where I’m like, it’s not just March. It was after the All-Star break, right? It’s been after the All-Star break where we’ve been looking at some of these things. And sure, everybody is talking about the midway point of the season. The All-Star break’s not technically the midway point of the season because of the game count and all these things. But after that, after into the second half of the season, the Cavs have been a completely different team. And sure, they’ve been able to win games. They went on a 16 game winning streak, but we have been able to be honest.
Chris (24:35.117)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (24:40.998)
They look ugly in some of those games. They shouldn’t have won all of those games. So I’m looking at this and saying that the competition that they’re going to face in the playoffs is not going to allow them to get away with winning games that they shouldn’t. It’s more so you’re going to have to win games that you shouldn’t by putting your best foot forward, whether that’s late game execution, defense, or just playing out shooting the ball better. And Darius Garland is at the forefront of that because we’ve seen Donovan have
Chris (24:43.219)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (25:09.02)
some better games as of late, we know that he can go get his. But I was talking to somebody else, or I think it was Jimmy actually on this podcast. He was like, I want to see Darius go for 35. I want to see Darius have an explosive game so that we know that this isn’t the same rerun from last year. This is supposed to be your revenge tour. This is supposed to be your, I’m going to check off my list, all the guards around the league. Right. But we haven’t seen that in the second half as much. And obviously tonight wasn’t another
Chris (25:19.725)
Mmm.
Ethan Sands (25:38.492)
good indication of that because he got smacked in the face, but he also had just nine points. I think, and Chris, you said this earlier on into the season and I completely agree with you in bringing it back just for you to go off of it. Like Darius is not in the same place as he was last season. He’s in a much better spot. He’s not dealing with a fractured jaw. He’s not dealing with the loss of a family member or close family member at that, right? You would expect him
Chris (26:00.075)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (26:07.804)
To be playing at a better caliber. I said this to Jimmy the other day, at least he’s still smiling. At least he’s still happy. At least he’s still enjoying himself and playing the game to the best of his ability and having fun while doing it. That’s the Darius we love and want to see, but now we want to see the results along with it.
Chris (26:29.934)
Yeah, I mean, think, um, think when you’re Darius and you just haven’t had, um, the same level of productivity in the second half of the season, um, he is such a barometer for this team in a variety of ways. And I think he understands that. And I think you see a little bit of pressing. I think you see a little bit of frustration coming from him as well. 14 of 13 from the field.
or four of 13 from the field like that’s not going to get it done. One of seven from three point range. That’s not going to get it done. you know, give him credit because he was still doing other things to try and impact the game. He had seven assists tonight against the Kings. He was trying to set guys up, try and create offense for his teammates because it wasn’t going well for him. But, you know, they need the Darius from the first half of the season. They need the all-star caliber Darius.
And I know that...
Like I know that March and April is not predictive of how things are going to go for him in the playoffs. But it goes back to the first thing that I said on tonight’s podcast. If you’re looking for reasons to doubt Darius Garland, he’s giving them to you. You know, what are the main questions that people have about the Cavs going into the playoffs?
Like I think there’s a little bit related to roster construction still. How much can you play Jared and Evan together in a seven game series throughout the course of a game? I think there’s still a little bit of that question. Should Max Struce be in the closing lineup or should it be Deandre Hunter? I think there’s that bit of a question. Can you play both bigs together to close games in a playoff environment? There’s that question still. So there’s some.
Chris (28:30.53)
Like little bit of roster construction things related to the Cavs. But like, I don’t think that’s the main question with them. I think the main question with them is, are they ready for this? Are some of their most important guys ready for what the playoffs are going to demand of them? And that points back to Darius Garland. I don’t think a ton of people are questioning Donovan Mitchell.
and whether he’s ready for playoff basketball and how effective he’s going to be for the Cavs in this coming postseason. There’s a belief in Donovan. There’s a reason why playoff Spidey exists. Now has he had shortcomings in the playoffs? Of course, definitely. He’ll be the first one to say that. The series against New York two years ago, his last series with the Utah Jazz against the Dallas Mavericks where Jalen Brunson then of the Mavericks
Outplayed him entirely So it’s not to say that Donovan hasn’t had slip-ups But we’ve seen also consistent brilliance from Donovan in the playoffs We haven’t seen that from Darius just have it and we haven’t seen it to the same level for Evan and This can’t be like in every other game type thing to win a championship Darius is gonna have to play like an all-star
And Evan is going to have to play like an all-star. Because that’s what helped them get to 60 plus wins. That’s what helped get them to the Eastern Conference. That’s to the top of the Eastern Conference. That is what has helped them take this next step in their franchise evolution. And if Darius is just going to be back to the productivity that he had last year, not to the person that he was last year, but to the productivity that he had last year.
That’s not gonna be good enough for the Cavs quite frankly. It’s not and if you look at You know him since the All-Star break The level that he is playing at is very very similar to last year when it was the season from hell for Darius again his demeanor is different His confidence is probably a little bit different. The ancillary stuff is a little bit different, but the level of play for Darius
Chris (30:56.14)
since the All-Star break is back to what it was last year. And that’s a little bit troubling. So when we ask these questions about, you know, is Darius ready for playoff basketball and all that entails is Evan ready for playoff basketball and all that entails are the Cavs as a whole ready for playoff basketball and all that entails. Part of the reason why these questions are coming up is because their play is leading.
to these kinds of questions.
Ethan Sands (31:28.804)
And Chris, this is against, again, a team that is in the playoff hunt, right? The Sacramento Kings are currently seated ninth in the Western Conference. But if you told me today that Domas and Damar DeRozan and Zach LaVean were going to all have 27 points or more in the contest, I would have told you you were lying. Like Damar going for 28, right?
And then Domas going for 27 and nine short, you hold them off the boards, but he has seven assists to Zach Levine going for 37 and 15 or 21 and seven 11. Like it felt like he was always open. It felt like even tough shots he was hitting because those guys, and I talked to their coach ahead of the game and I was like, in a league that is basically all three point shots, you have two of the premier mid range shooters. And he was like, yeah.
But that allows us to play with the shot clock and we know that they can get to their money shot anytime they want to. And that’s exactly what they did. I was like, I’m sitting here, I’m watching the game. I’m like, he really just spoke this into fruition. Like you really just said that they were going to be able to do this against one of the better defensive teams in the league. And again, my point to this is I don’t know if the, if the three, the trio of Domas, Demar DeRozan and Zach Levine is even like,
Chris (32:32.874)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (32:51.416)
as scary as some of the trios that the Cavs are gonna see in the playoffs in the Eastern Conference, right? You talk about Boston, Chris Stops, Jason Tatum, Jaylen Brown. You don’t think they can all give you 30? and again, then you look at the next, Jaylen Brunson, Carl Anthony Towns, O.G.E.N. and Nobium, and the Cal Bridges on any given night. Those guys can give you buckets too. Then you talk about the Indiana Pacers. We know Tyrese Halliburton, Pascal Siakam,
Miles Turner, and then Milwaukee, right? Milwaukee’s got Damon Yonis, two potential Hall of Famers. So you’re going to have to go through teams that have weapons, that have high scoring efficiency. And we know that everybody talks about this, Chris, probably you me, probably were the first one. They cannot stay up here the whole year. They were shooting above their, Atkinson was still saying it in game 20, 25.
Chris (33:47.821)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (33:49.66)
talking about we’re shooting over our heads. Now we’re seeing the reality of that. And we understand that the playoffs is more defense oriented anyway. You’re not likely to shoot 50 % from three. You’re not likely to shoot 40 % from three because the defensive intensity is so much different. So you have to ramp up on that end of the floor as well. And if you’re going to allow these teams to have multiple players to score 25 plus in a game,
You’re going to have trouble, especially if your guys aren’t to the level of experience where you can know that they can go and get that.
Chris (34:27.022)
So I think the other hard conversation when it comes to the Cavs, Ethan, when it comes to talking about the big picture anyway, is this. They just haven’t earned the benefit of the doubt to this point. So let’s say, for example, it was Boston that was limping to the finish line and not playing well since mid March. You would look at it and you would say, well, yeah, but
they’re the reigning champions and they understand what it takes to win in the postseason. And there’s a proverbial switch that they can flip the old LeBron teams with the Cavs like, yeah, maybe they’re struggling a little bit down the stretch. Maybe LeBron’s not as efficient, maybe Kyrie’s not as efficient, but we know when they get into the playoffs that they’re going to turn it up to a different level. And we know that because we’ve seen it.
because they’ve done it. Because they understand the differences between the two. And you can say the same thing about the Denver Nuggets right now. Okay, yeah, down the stretch, kind of up and down. Sometimes the defense is locked in, sometimes it’s not. But they still have that championship DNA. They still have that championship medal. And there’s still a benefit of the doubt that you’re willing to give that
kind of team because it’s just different. Because they’ve shown it. Because they’ve done it. It’s hard to just sit here and say, and I’m not making a declaration. I’m not making any kind of conclusion on what version of Darius Garland the Cavs are going to get in the playoffs because I have no idea. If I knew that, I’d be making millions from FanDuel and DraftKings and all that kind of stuff. And I am not, unfortunately.
And I’m not ready to say I know exactly what the Cavs are gonna get from Evan Mobley. How could you? He’s a young guy that’s about to go through something in a role with a responsibility that he’s never had before. I mean if you think about what is demanded of him and the kind of player that he has become and the kind of attention that he’s going to garner from defenses when you get into a playoff environment, it’s different. It’s very very different.
Chris (36:50.424)
So I’m not ready to say for sure, like I know how this is going to play out. All I’m saying is, it’s difficult right now to sit here and say, well, Darius is going to be fine. Well, Darius is just going to flip the switch. Because like, what if he goes to flip the switch and he doesn’t know how to? Because he’s never had to. And because he’s never done it before. It’s one thing to say, well, Jimmy Butler is just going to flip it and it’s playoff Jimmy.
Seen it. Give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean, it’s hard to sit here and just ignore everything that we’ve seen from Darius since the second half of this season and just assume that the Darius from the first half of the season is going to come back in the playoffs. You know what I mean? And I’m not trying to put this all on Darius, but this is a conversation in large part about late game execution.
Ethan Sands (37:42.245)
Yep.
Chris (37:47.97)
And so much of that is tied to him. And this is a conversation about the Cavs and some of the weaknesses that they have shown, not just in the second half of the season, but most recently. mean, if we go back to the way that they’ve played since the middle of March, it’s, you know, it’s gotta be something that’s troubling to the Cavs. It’s gotta be something that’s troubling to Kenny Atkinson beyond all of the travel stuff, beyond all the experimentation stuff.
Beyond all the line up stuff, there are things beneath that that are a little bit troubling here, especially when you talk about some of these issues that we’ve pointed out on the podcast. And many of them tie back to Darius Garland. So you have to have those kinds of conversations.
Ethan Sands (38:37.56)
Especially if you’re talking about shooting Chris because if you’re the one taking the second most three pointers in a game and you’re playing the second most minutes behind Donovan Mitchell Yeah, gotta knock those down. You gotta set the tone You’ve got to do all these things and the other thing you mentioned just being able to flip a switch I don’t think a team That is able to flip a switch should have their head coach asking for more competitive fire right in
Chris (39:05.838)
Mmm.
Ethan Sands (39:07.226)
before the game against the Clippers to end the Muncher March 30th, Kenny Atkinson was like, I don’t want to call it physicality because the physicality question started to rear its ugly head after the horrible rebounding sense that they had on the West Coast trip. But he was like, I don’t think it’s physicality. I think it’s competition, competing, competitive fire. And I think the cows were able to do it that game against the Clippers. And then they were able to do it.
Chris (39:25.326)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (39:36.046)
Against the Knicks and then since it’s been like, okay where to go Like what’s like I think Kenny even said this like the Cavs when he gives them an assignment when he gives them Something to focus on to hone in on they can do it. They do it to a great level But why does every game need a new? A tone setter you shouldn’t have that you should be like, okay. This has been what we have been asked to do
Chris (39:40.718)
you
Ethan Sands (40:04.752)
Let’s do it for the whole month. Let’s not just do it for a game, two games, a game and a half, whatever it may be. Because like Chris said at the earlier parts of this podcast, I don’t remember the last time they played a whole 48 minutes. And the only month that I can think of where they played an entire month of good defense was February. And I think that’s a testament to what they’re capable of. if you’re, and they’re not, they’re no longer the
Chris (40:23.639)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (40:31.448)
even in the top two of net rating anymore when it comes to the NBA, they’re third. And sure, that’s not a big drop off, but it means something. It means that there is a regression that is happening that needs to be taken accountable for. And obviously everybody in the locker room said that they got to hold each other accountable. They got to hold each other to the same standard. But it’s a lot of lip service right now. I want to see it. I want to see it, Chris.
Chris (40:55.342)
you
Chris (40:58.774)
Yeah, I don’t blame you. you know, I think they’re still searching for a couple of different things that are meaningful when it comes to their potential playoff success. And I think one of the things that they’re searching for, and look, I think this is going to be circumstantial. I think this is going to be based on matchup. I think it’s going to be based on game situation. But one of the things, Ethan, that I think they’re searching for is what’s their best five man lineup?
I don’t know that there’s an answer to that right now. You know, if we go back to the dynastic Golden State Warriors, there was this understanding that if they got in a pinch, there was one card that they were always going to play. You know what that was? We’re gonna move Draymond to the five and we’re gonna beat everybody, we’re gonna go to our death lineup. Nobody had an answer for it. You know, I think there’s a belief with Boston.
that if we get in a pinch, if things aren’t going well, if the pressure is ramping up, we know what five we’re going to. It’s obvious what five we’re going to go to. Now, I’m not 100 % sure that the Cavs are there yet. I think they’re still figuring it out. You know, a lot of times it’s been Max with the Core 4, both in the starting and the closing lineup, and I totally get the merits of that.
If we’re sitting here having a conversation about end of game execution, your ceiling increases on the offensive end of the floor with Max because you can just do different things. If you don’t want it to be stagnant, if you don’t want it to be pick and roll dominant, okay, you’ve got Max who is going to unlock different things for you on the offensive end. His constant movement is going to create chaos. His three point shooting threat is going to help
hold defenders closer to him. His two-man game that he can run with either Jared Allen or Evan Mobley gives them a different kind of outlet for offense. His cutting, which is elite, elite in the NBA, can create other things. So I totally understand the merits of it. But... Like, what about Deandre Hunter?
Chris (43:20.588)
Are you going to play him at three next to both bigs? Or do you think he’s best with only one big? And if it’s only one big out there, then does that mean that Jarrett has to come off the floor? You know what I mean? So it’s just, I get situations going to play into it. I get matchups going to play into it. But when they’re in a pinch, what are they going to? Who are they going to? And I think those questions are still being asked.
Again, not trying to overreact here based on a wonky couple of weeks where they haven’t been at their best and just ignore five months of dominance and brilliance, but I think they’re still searching for some things. And I don’t know what’s going to lead them to those answers.
Ethan Sands (44:16.092)
I think it’s so interesting because we’ve talked about it since Jamie Becker’s staff was fired, right? And how Kenny Atkinson was going to be different. But the reality is, if you’re going to keep going back to that starting lineup rather than using the lineups that you’ve experimented with, or trusting the depth when it gets most crucial, it’s the same thing. Like we’ve come in a full circle. Obviously we haven’t gone there yet, but
Chris (44:26.061)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (44:42.444)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (44:45.454)
Again in tonight’s game and maybe think about it like you went to a fourth quarter lineup That was the entire starting unit to end the game and not necessarily all of them deserve to be on the floor What should have been on the floor? right and again, this is not us overreacting because it’s just one game that we’re breaking down or whatever, but There have been trending topics. There have been trending things that i’ve been seeing that have just been so similar
to stuff in the past. Although this season has been extremely different, those different things are what has made this team successful. So I would hate to see this team resort back to the basic when it matters most, when the lights are brightest, because that’s what’s comfortable and those are the lineups that you’ve used the most. So you feel like those are the best lineups. And sure, Kenny Atkinson is statistically driven.
Chris (45:34.106)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (45:43.942)
So he probably has a list of like the top 10 lineups that he can go to at any moment. But I do think that there have been a couple of times over the last couple of weeks where we talked about the experiment and experimentation period where Kenny goes, okay, experiment over with starting lineup go. And I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing when it comes to this playoff run.
Chris (46:08.524)
Yeah, I think he’s going to operate different in the playoffs. I truly believe that at my core. I don’t know that I have enough to back that up and say it definitively, but I believe in how smart he is. I believe in how forward thinking he is. I believe in how much of a problem solver he is. I believe all these things about Kenny and I think his decision making in a seven game series against whoever it’s going to be. I think it’s going to be quicker.
I it’s going to be free of any other ancillary factors. I think a lot of what he’s doing with his lineups now is just what I said. I think he’s trying to find it. I think he’s trying to learn as much as possible before the playoffs roll around so that he can be confident when he goes to specific lineups.
I do think it would be fascinating at various points in this last week to see him try and close with Isaac. I don’t know if he’s going to, I don’t. But I think it would be fascinating to try Isaac around the core four and just see, because late game situations, those can become a little bit tricky, the offense can get bogged down.
Defenses is ramped up and all those different things Like in late game situations. I would love to see close late game situations. I would love to see How opposing defenses approach that? Like do they just sag off Isaac? Do they just do the playoff version of guarding Isaac and and what’s the Cavs counter for that? Do they put him in the actions? Have him be the screener
that kind of like forces him into the action and he’s not just standing in the corner where the defense can shade off of him or standing above the break where the defense can shade off of him. And I just don’t remember too many times. This game against the Kings might’ve been one, honestly. Given the way that Isaac played and given how much of an impact he was having, this one might’ve been one to consider finishing with Isaac just to kind of see.
Chris (48:38.456)
just to kind of see how they function offensively and whether they can function. And one game doesn’t give you an answer, but it gives you more information on how you can function in those kinds of situations with him out there. Can you still be a good enough executing team on the offensive end of the floor with Isaac out there? Because we know what he’s gonna bring defensively and we know how much benefit there is going to be for the Cavs to do that.
So as the game was going on, there was part of me that said, boy, I wonder if Kenny wants to see what this looks like without, he didn’t, he closed with a different group, but that’s something that I wonder if he’s going to take a longer look at if those opportunities present themselves either against Chicago, Indiana, New York, before the postseason arrives.
Ethan Sands (49:35.324)
I mean, we’ve talked about it on this podcast. I’ve been very high on Isaac over the last few weeks just because of how well he’s played in the minor stints that he’s been given, both offensively and defensively. And if it’s not been offensively shooting the ball, it’s how he’s been in the role, in the short role and getting actions involved in all of these things. And Chris, you make a great point of how he’s going to operate or having Kenny Atkinson look at what it’s going to look like offensively, but also defensively, like putting him.
on one of the opposing team’s best players in the closing minutes and seeing how they’ve reacted to that. Obviously they’re still going to try and get actions involved to get Darius Garland on them, but we know Isaac to fight through screen. We know Isaac to be such a great defender in all the little areas. So I definitely think that’s something that I’ve been wanting to see, right? That I’ve been curious about because of how one, how great it was at the beginning of the season when Isaac was shooting the ball lights out.
and also what he brings defensively. So I definitely think that’s a lineup that we want to see. So I’m glad you brought it up because I mentioned earlier on about Ty Jerome and Isaac’s impact and especially in the fourth quarter and then them not getting minutes to close the game. So I do think it’s interesting. And as you mentioned, the Cavs are only worried about really winning one more game. And for the fans that want to know, they can no longer eclipse
the franchise record for games won in a single season, can only match. again, now they really don’t care about that record because they only need to win one more game to secure the number one seed in the Eastern Conference and home court advantage through the playoffs in the East. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember,
Chris (51:08.878)
Thank
Ethan Sands (51:28.966)
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